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Ex-Truesicians and full time DJ/producer/musician 2tall is not your average turntablist. Actually don’t call him that. 2tall makes music using the turntables, but it’s more then likely you won’t have heard this type of ‘scratch music’ around much. Having just showcased at the UK DMC finals and started more live work on his own and alongside a live band called ‘August’ as well as releasing a mixtape of UK and US exclusives entitled ‘Writer’s Block’, 2tall is gearing up for the release of his first album this summer on Needle-Work records, the London based label which was spawned from the open decks night of the same name (which ran throughout 2002-03 but have now stopped). What follows is an interview conducted in February this year at 2tall’s home and studio in North London. We look at his past, how he came up in the DJ scene, his previous releases, the new album, his live work and much more including what is really wrong with the ‘turntablist’ scene today. So sit back and enjoy as the Tall one speaks his mind. Well the first thing I wanted to ask you was if you could tell us when you started making music, because I read on your profile you started in ‘93, was that as a more classical background?  2: No not at all. Basically a friend of mine gave me some software for
my computer and I was playing around with it, and starting making some
tracks really. Kind of like old school stuff, the type of music that was
coming out at the time, so that’s really where it started for me.So you didn’t have any classical training then, did you play any instruments when you were younger? 2: I played the piano when I was younger, and then I played the flute for a while too. And then I got into drums when I was about 14, and played them for about 4 years, that was it really. That’s the only real classical training I have. And when did you start DJing? 2: When I was 15. So how did you get from doing all these things to where you are now? 2: Ohh! It seems like a long road, it’s weird. I guess if I had to try and map it out, I was into music first, and then I got into DJing in ‘95 just before or right at the beginning of the whole DJ landslide thing that happened. I was a DJ before I could scratch definitely. I learnt to mix first. Scratching for me at that time was kind of like a novelty thing you could do, I didn’t really know the history of it. I didn’t really know anything about it and the only person I knew who could scratch was DJ Hype, the dnb DJ. A lot of people also got turned onto it by listening to him. I had a test tone record like him, and I would try and scratch with it over drum n bass using the line switch, which was a bit weird. And then I guess the next thing was around I think ’98, when I first found out about battle records. I was always wondering how DJs got their sounds to scratch with, and then I got hold of a battle record. And for starters, all DJing was to me was playing for a crowd and entertaining people, and then I started scratching properly around 98’. I was messing around at first and then I realized that you could make music using turntables, and around 99-00 I was living at home at the time, and I thought to myself "ok I need to really get into this, and sit down and think about it".  "...all DJing was to me was playing for a crowd and entertaining people..." I was always making music throughout this whole time, on the computer and playing the drums etc. I was making all different types of music on my computer and DJing, and from there I started hearing more turntable music. I got a hold of Wave Twisters and I was like "shit!" And I started watching groups of DJs and how they would make music using the turntable. I kind of really realized the potential of the turntable to make a track, cutting drums and so on. So I guess you could say I was into DJing and production for a while before I realized the potential of the turntable as a musical instrument and then the ways in which you could blend the table with production and create new music. I realized the differences between being a DJ and scratching and how they were similar and linked but could also be totally different. And so after discovering that, I kind of visualized the whole picture with producing as well. So anyway that’s how I got into the whole thing really. Cool. And so you did battle for a while didn’t you? 2: Yeah I did a few in 2001, but didn’t really do anything in 2002. I did the DMC UK, and World Finals, UK ITF, European Beatdown and some local stuff in 2003. So what is your view on it right now, I mean with your experience battling and the knowledge and insight you got from that? Especially because you were battling at a time when it was already going downhill in a sense that there wasn’t the innovation there was in previous years. I mean would you agree that it’s got to a point where it’s not turning out for the better anymore in battles?  2: Yeah and I’ll tell you why as well. I’ve been thinking about this a
lot. What it is, you have to think back to like the "golden age" of
battling, up until Craze which was really kind of the last break through
and then before and I mean all the way back before. Craze has become the
pinnacle of this whole era really but it started way before him. What it
was is DJs who were primarily hip-hop DJs, primarily not necessarily,
who were up on stage and battling each other. And battling each other to
essentially say, "I’m the baddest" - but they were also saying "look I’m
the baddest but you can also come and check me at this club later". And
that’s what was part of this whole hip-hop thing. Check this DJ out,
he’s beating other DJs but he can move a crowd as well. The two were
like the same thing. But then as the technology evolved and a lot of
scratching evolved it’s gone on from being about the DJ to being about
finding out new ways to use the turntable and make people flip when they
hear you doing your thing. Now we got to a point where people are just
battling and do not do anything else but battle. They sit at home and do
juggles, scratches and DJ battles. But, throw them in front of a crowd
of people and ask them to DJ and mix and do it well, and there’s no
chance.That’s it! 2: And that’s a shame because it’s almost like kidding yourself, that’s how I look at it. Battling as a competitive, entertaining kind of artform as been eating itself. Battling was also an element that came from hip hop culture, in the same way breakers and graffers would battle, DJs started to battle. I agree there has been a much slower slope of innovation on the battle side of things, and since the days of groundbreaking championships, year in, year out things have slowed down a lot. Add to that the media factor and it’s changed totally from what it was. It’s still not easy to become a battle DJ, but it’s become easier to be only a battle DJ. In your case you were battling but that was only a part of what you were doing. And a lot of people find it easy to blame the instructional videos, which is partly right because they help push the technical side of scratching forward and have left a lot of people without any knowledge of where it all came from. 2: That’s the thing they get good very quick, but without really innovating. While they are sitting at home cutting they are thinking about being the best at cutting and not thinking about anything else. But when they are going to enter DMC and what not that would be a real problem. If you look at some people who have won various battles, what are they doing? Why did they enter? "...as the technology evolved and a lot of scratching evolved it’s gone on from being about the DJ to being about finding out new ways to use the turntable..." That’s true a lot of people have gone and done different things with it. 2: Of course, the recurrent reason is to get your name out there of course, but you need groundwork before, and something to come with after. Yeah that’s a major thing and also something Trick mentioned in his interview with us that the battles acted as a networking forum for tablists and a place for marketing and that’s really what it’s become to an extent.  2: Yeah it’s like I was telling you earlier on man, turntablism is really
just a media term that is used to tag on to kids that like to scratch,
and they are then pigeonholed into a sub-group of DJs and then they are
sold products to. And to me anyway, turntablism is really nothing more
then a media tag for another type of DJ. And that’s no disrespect to
Babu, his original term is totally valid, it’s just that it’s become
something totally different, used to target people who scratch. It’s been perverted in a way? 2: Which is why everyone hates it now. And that’s why I say please don’t call me a turntablist, it’s almost like belittling what you are doing. If someone goes to me "oh you are a turntablist" I would say "No, I scratch, but there is a hell of a lot more to what I do than scratching" And then DJ is too wide a word. 2: Of course. But it’s funny because I actually quite enjoy this limbo type place I am stuck in. Because a lot of creative things can come out of that. In the long run it might be for the better. The problem being that you need a terminology to discuss it? 2: Of course but when you’ve got this kind of DJ in a box packs, full of DJ equipment, and they call them DJ battle or "turntablist" pack, it’s bullshit. That’s when you have to start thinking things have gone too far. 2: I think it’s the worst thing in the world if someone is good and talented at what they do and they never leave their room. It’s the biggest shame and it’s like they have become a product of the marketing ploys used to sell equipment. Buy this or that and you will become better at it! Let’s talk about the Truesicians quickly, how did you guys get together? 2: Originally it was Blakey and Whut! and I. We hooked up through a mutual friend, a guy we all used to hang out with called DJ Enema, who had a crew called the Flaredycats. And we realized we all lived near London and we got to know each other first for a few months, and then we used to go round Whut’s place and set up in his kitchen and cut stuff up in there, you know. It was purely just for the fun of it, then we formed this crew, and at that point we were all doing the same thing, going out and DJing, and we were all on the same kind of technical level. And I think we are all older and wiser now, after a couple of years and what we did and achieved is all really minor in comparison to what other people have done, but for us it was important and it’s been a cool little journey for sure. Yeah and then after getting together we had DJ Beware join the crew. "...turntablism is really just a media term that is used to tag on to kids that like to scratch..." He knew Whut, from being in Manchester and got in contact with us, and the thing is he was mainly in Vienna most of the time, but we kept him in the crew and hooked up when he was over here. That hook-up never really took off mainly because he was over there doing his own thing, that’s the way it went really, I see him when he is over here and we’re friends so it’s cool. And then or course there was DJ Daredevil who came in the crew towards the middle of last year, he lives in London so we told him to come join us. And it worked out really, we won the teams and went from there. So what would be your best memory of being in the Truesicians then? 2: Best memory? Awww man there are too many good memories really. I mean they are still all my mates, but on a musical side of things I couldn’t tell really, frankly the whole thing was just a wicked ride. We have only parted on the musical side of things, Blakey and Whut are still working DJing everywhere, Daredevil is doing his own thing and I’m doing mine. But like I said we are still good friends, and there isn’t any point in having a name over friendship, you might as well be in a gang then! (laughs) Before we get on your more recent work I just wanted to ask you about your previous stuff like the scratch beats CDs you put out and the track you had on the Cookshop EP. How did those come about?  2:
Yeah the CDs came first, the first one was called Psychoacoustic
Soundtrack, and that was like 12 or 14 beats. I like to put out beats
for people to cut over and practice with, but it’s not realistic to put
them out on vinyl without a lot of money and I just wanted to get them
out to people. It’s a form of promotion on one hand, which is cool, but
then this is also my heart, I want to show people that I can make decent
beats and it’s me. I didn’t want to make any money off it, which is why
I sold them for a fiver, I probably broke even on each CD but I never
made any money of it. The first one I sold hardly any of anyway, and it
got bootlegged to fuck as well which is fine by me, it’s added
promotion. And that was really the aim with both of them. I maybe sold
20 of the first and 50 of the second and that was it. It was all made at
home and really just to show my beats to people. It’s promotion but it’s
also giving something to someone: "here’s my beats I know you are bored
of the ones you have" – can I add that I was the first person to do
this, now a few others have taken up this idea, which is great!And the Cookshop thing was that because you worked with them? 2: No it wasn’t actually, there was an advert somewhere, and I approached them and they took me on originally to do a four track EP, one of the tracks made it onto their taster but then the EP fell through and they fell off the contact. It was an all-scratch track, wasn’t it? 2: Yeah they all were, the one on the taster was called Freeforming, I had been playing around with the concept for a few years before doing this but it was my first official release I suppose and the first all-scratch track I put out. And then following all this we come to your first release on Needle-Work, The Rise EP. How did it come together, what would you say were the processes behind making it? 2: Ummmm, well The Rise actually was pretty simple, I made it a while back now, it only came out recently but I made it well over a year ago. What it was is I made a scratch beat and then thought why not use an electro style beat to try and make a track out of it, because a lot of scratch tracks are typical hip hop beats, and then cutting up old battle breaks samples on it. And I was like, I’m cool with the battle breaks and but why not make a beat that would make people want to move to it. And that was the whole idea behind "The Rise EP" - then I thought about getting Blakey on it, because I thought that out of the crew at the time Blakey and I were probably the strongest at cutting, Also because it suited Blakey’s style, and it just fell together! If I ever hear it again I might have to shoot myself (laughs), but yeah it’s quite old now and very different to what you will hear on the new album. Also I should mention that the Posse Cuts track on that EP, which has got 13 UK DJs on it, was done over the Internet. It’s all mp3s that were emailed to everyone. I did the beat, the intro and the arranging myself and all the cuts were done individually and sent back to me. But I’ve met all the people that are on it - mostly at the Needle-Work nights. Then there is a track called Rain on there as well, which is a nearly all-scratch track, with only a couple of programmed things. "...I like to put out beats for people to cut over and practice with, but it’s not realistic to put them out on vinyl without a lot of money..." So did you make that alongside the other tracks as well, or was it something you worked on before or put together at the last minute? 2: I made it when I was in between moving houses. At the time I was moving about quite a lot - it was when I was moving back to my mum’s house, which would have been last summer now, turbulent times that made me re-think my music to reflect more inner feelings, which has been the aim since. So Graeme and Trick set the label up and then took you on because The Rise track had not been selected for the last Return Of The DJ compilation? 2: Yeah. Dave Paul was going to put The Rise on that compilation and then turned around and pulled it. For me it didn’t matter as such, I was fine with it, it was his choice. So how do you feel then, that this action gave you the choice to do things differently then having the one track on their compilation?  2: Well as you can see it’s really been a blessing in disguise. I’ve got
my own EP with my name on it, which is more rewarding then having a
track on a compilation. No disrespect to anyone, but thanks to Trick and
Graeme’s generosity and vision I have been able to have my own record,
which is a dream. It’s great you know? I think, umm, yeah it’s just
great!And so the fact that you are all mates must help with your creative process but also knowing that you can work on your own and bring things to them that if they like they will put out. It must be a nice working relationship, if you see what I mean? 2: Yeah totally, it is like that. And I mean it’s the same with Waxfactor too. His EP is coming out soon (ed note: it’s out now, entitled the GameFace EP on Needle-Work), and it’s really nice. It’s definitely good for feedback and things like that. Trick will come in and listen to something I’m working on and tell me what he thinks I should pull out for example, and it’s cool because I know it’s not a decision dictated by money or any other interests beyond the fact that they want all the music to be dope. You know a bigger label might just say "no it’s shit pull it out". At least with Trick and Graeme I know the feedback is positive and constructive! If they don’t like it they are not going to not tell me because of our friendship. And so regarding the new release and material, you said it was different, and does that also apply to the production processes and putting it all together? Was it a step up from your previous work in that sense? 2: Totally. This new album represents the whole squashing together of what I’ve done so far, I think. There is minimal scratching on it, the scratches aren’t overbearing or in your face, they are subtler. There isn’t any blatant cutting as such if you see what I mean. That’s done because it represents more where I want to go with music. There are bits on it that are different to anything I ever done. There is one track with no scratching on it and then one track, which is all scratched. That shows both ends of the spectrum as far as scratch music goes and my music too. At the end of the day it’s just music, and I think that’s where this music and this ‘scene’ need to go. It needs to be able to be put alongside music that is being released today to actually bring more credibility to what people still see as just a bunch of geeks scratching. Totally, it makes a lot sense. So would you say this new album is definitely more mature? 2: Yeah, definitely The Rise was more about cutting you know? There was one track on that EP, Rain, which was more musical, hold on, I hate that word, let me rephrase that. The track Rain showed more of a compositional aspect than anything else on that EP. (laughs) The Rise was more of a picture in time track? 2: Yeah it was a battle track, which showed what I had been through in the previous years. And that in itself has its own place within the artform, but it is something that is really played out now, much like the battle scene. Maybe not played out as much as it’s moving on you know? You can still do tunes like that, "I’m the best, I’m the baddest", with loads of cuts and showing off but you need to be able to move on too, you need evolution. Which is why Shifting Tides is a mix of different things: there is a bit of live stuff on there, percussion, some cello, and live bass as well as scratching and programmed stuff and all that is put together to fit as one whole. "...the Posse Cuts track on that EP, which has got 13 UK DJs on it, was done over the Internet. It’s all mp3s that were emailed to everyone..." And it was meant to be an EP originally wasn’t it? But then evolved into a full album? 2: Yeah it was going to be an EP. The change is mainly because some of the tracks are five minutes long and as I went along I realised that the more tracks I finished the more they were full tracks. There isn’t anything on there that is under three minutes. So yeah we now have an LP which is going to be around ten or eleven tracks deep and I think it’s better that way too. Right, I think you’ll like this next question. How would you describe your music to someone who had never heard it before? 2: Scratch fusion! It’s a term that I came up with to describe my work, it’s like a blend of scratch parts, live instruments and programmed bits. It’s the only way I have found to describe what I try to do, especially with Shifting Tides, because really it’s taking from all these different ways to make music, and marrying them together in one whole. So the fusion is that, I’m blending three ‘styles’ of making music, and it does rely on scratching, so scratch fusion! Ok, and the live stuff you are doing at the minute, with the loop pedal and stuff, what’s happening with that?  2: Yeah that’s just groundwork at the minute really.So you still working on that stuff? 2: Yeah I got a few things with it I want to do but I’m still working on it at the moment. It’s really groundwork now, it’s a totally new discipline of its own as well. And I’m working together with another DJ on live stuff too. And how did you come to that side of things? Was it a normal evolution or something else? 2: No I saw that video of Toadstyle and Excess using it and I was like "whoa! I need one". I’m not going to front, you know? I saw it and wanted to do it so I bought a pedal. It’s a great tool for what I want to do but it’s also important to say that you need to know a certain amount of stuff before being able to use something like this to the fullest and without becoming lost in it for the sake of it. Kind of like letting the equipment become the focus and not the music? 2: Yeah. Like you need to know about frequencies and which frequencies clash with each other, you need to take certain things into account especially if you want to go out and do it live. Certain records will be quieter, some might feedback, frequencies might clash, so I think that people shouldn’t just get a pedal for the sake of it, without having a certain knowledge of music production and what it takes to make a track. Play around on a computer first and learn some basics, you know? It’s like everything to do with technology really you have to make sure that it doesn’t become the focus of what you do, it’s there as a tool to help your music not to become your music. "...I have been able to have my own record, which is a dream..." And a quick word on the live performances you’ve done so far. Like the stuff you did with Square One and the freestyle on the jazz drums you did with Coco B, what was that like? 2: Yeah I mean I wouldn’t say I have really performed any of my stuff live yet as such, I have done half hour shows in front of groups of people who have come to see me play or come to see something that was composed live. The gig with Coco was an afternoon at a barbeque with ten or so people there, all freestyle. There is also some loop pedal stuff I’m working on right now which could be turned into a live show. So what is it that appeals to you about doing a live show? 2: I like the pressure of it, I like the feeling of being under pressure but at the same time saying "yeah I’m doing it", it’s really nice, being able to stand up and show my stuff to people instead of being in the studio all the time or never performing live. When you do it live you can convey more feelings and impressions on people, you know? Actually I did do some live stuff with Square One at a festival which was done on 4 turntables with backing tracks and fx, all improvised - to a seated audience no less, which was amazing! And if you could have anything what would be your ideal live setup? Any equipment and any musicians? 2: I’d have a drummer, some string players, bass player, percussionist and maybe a maximum of 3 DJs, maybe with pedals or maybe not, and effects wise a few minimal things. That would be wicked. Musically speaking in your opinion what do you think of the "scene" right now and where it’s going right and or wrong?  2: I’ve said it to a few people but basically in this country, Trick and
Monk-A with the help of a few other people have been really important to
bring people together in the UK and now they are getting on with what
they want to do so I think now it’s important that networking between
people happens more than just on the internet. If people are serious
about it then they should stand up and start working together. Or things
are going to just bubble along and stay the same, I mean whichever way
it happens now I’m happy just to keep on keeping on and doing my own
thing. But I’ve always said that it is important for people to try and
collaborate more when they can. As far as the scene goes I think that
for battling you should forget it unless you are a club DJ or have
something else to support yourself around the battles because honestly,
I've been up there, I went to the world finals and now to me anyway it
means little for what I want to do now. You need something else to use
the battles as a platform to push what ever else you might be doing. I
think that this year is really going to be the best or worst year for
turntablism, in the battle scene anyway, It should be interesting to see
how it turns out. On the other hand there are some great things
happening all over the world now, with people starting to see beyond the
technicality. Learning that you need to know techniques but then also
being able to put them away and only use them in the appropriate
situation. You could compare it to martial arts especially, where you
learn mad techniques and ways of hurting people or defending yourself,
but you never really use them, you learn when not to use them.And it’s the same on a musical level for DJs like us, you learn how to do some mad crazy patterns and stuff kind of like a "show and prove" game really, you know, a game of pull out the sausage! (laughs) But then once you get to such a technical level you don’t really have to prove anything, you can demonstrate things that are much more musically powerful without all the glitter of techniques. Being able to impact a feeling on people in that way is great but you need to have all these techniques as well as a sense of rhythm and musicality, perhaps humour, before you can do that too. So do you agree that there is a big gap still at the moment between battling and the musical side of the artform? 2: Yeah totally, you have all these things going on with battling and then when you look at the musical side of things there isn’t that much yet. "...You could compare it to martial arts especially, where you learn mad techniques and ways of hurting people..." A lot of us are happy to call it a music, and see it that way but it’s true that in other aspects it isn’t yet as such. 2: I have been harping on about musical scratching for a while and I’m so happy now to see more people go that way and try that route instead of battling. The person that really inspired me was DJ Enema, that was over four years ago and he’s been in Australia for a while now but he’s coming back, we might start working together. And the thing is, he was the first person who told me that I should forget about patterns and things like that and concentrate on the flow and the other aspects of scratching and using the turntable. The last thing would be where do you hope to see this whole artform and music in the next ten years? In terms of development and so on. 2: As something that is taken seriously but not too seriously at the same time. It would be nice to be able to have some kind of infrastructure provided by people like manufacturers, whereby there is like monetary sponsorship as opposed to just giving someone a free mixer, actually put money into projects where people can stand up and improve themselves and show their music. If you look at snowboarders and people in extreme sports they make a living out of what they do because they are sponsored in that way. And turntablists don’t and that’s a bit shit, manufacturers have a habit of messing DJs about.  Sweet, and lastly a quick
fire round for you:If I say message boards you say? Be careful. Favourite take away: Thai. Favourite table: Technics, liking the Vestax more though. Favourite mixer: I’m easy really. Favourite BPM for producing: Depends on the mood! To scratch to: 80bpm ish. First record you ever bought: It was a ten-inch - "gwaan" remix on flex records. Favourite tune of the moment: Weather Report - "Waterfall" right now. Favourite TV program: Umm I can’t think of any really, I’m not that big a TV buff. Favourite movie: I’d say LOTR trilogy just killed it and before that it was Star Wars for me, otherwise all the Kevin Smith ones, and films like Ghostdog. Weed or beer: Bit of both. Any last words? 2: Don’t front! and check my album, ‘The Shifting Tides’, dropping summer 2004 on Needle-Work Records.
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K-Per
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ukhh.com 2004
DJ
2Tall Interview
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