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Make A Mistake To Do Something Right - An Interview with B+

interview 0359 added 18.12.05 words: K-per technical: Spoon

While the name B+ may not a ring a bell straight away, chances are you’re familiar with the man’s work, and probably own some of it. Brian Cross, aka B+, made a name for himself on the US West Coast originally as a photographer for local magazines (such as URB) and upcoming local talent, including DJ Shadow. Most notably he’s responsible for the cover to ‘Entroducing’, and his work has in more recent years been a regular fixture in Wax Poetics and many Stones Throw releases. However it’s the projects this Irish head has been working on since the turn of the century that have probably brought the most attention to him, and helped showcase a side of DJ culture, and music as a whole, that is too often ignored in favour of throw away, easily consumed pop fodder.
B+, alongside Brian Coleman, is the mastermind behind the Keepintime and Brasilintime documentaries and projects. While Brasilintime is still a short way from official release, Keepintime has been out on DVD, and before that VHS, for quite a while now, and has recently been picked up for European distribution by the lovely people at Ninja Tune. KIT started as a photo shoot regrouping legendary drummers, such as Earl Palmer and the late Roy Porter, with DJs who were inspired by the drummers work and used their recordings in their own turntable manipulations (including Cut Chemist, Numark and J Rocc). From this simple premise came a short movie, Talking Drums and Whispering Vinyl, sold on VHS and that proved extremely popular, after being shown on part of DJ Shadow’s European tour in 2002. From this short movie came a live show, at LA’s El Rey theatre, bringing together some of the drummers and artists, as well as others such as Madlib, from the original shoot and VHS. And from this live show, widely acknowledged by fans as one of the finest, came this DVD, which offers up under half of the 2 hour live show, as well as the original short and additional material (interviews, essays) and a CD of brand new music inspired by the show.
And so with a European release impending, a date in London for the launch party, and the Brasilintime documentary upcoming, the time was never better to catch up with B+ himself and find out some history and thoughts behind the projects, what drives him and why it’s never been picked up by any majors. So read on for all this and more, including some thoughts on the state of things in America and the world right now, the tablist scene, photography, music and movies and more. Whatever you do keep in mind that… Rhythm is Remembering.....

“...[Keepintime] is so self produced, it’s just a labour of love that we only get to work on when we have money …”

So what have you been up to recently then?

Well we’ve just screened a test of Brasilintime in New York and done a Keepintime show there as well, I’ve just done a shoot of Oh No and Galt Mc Dermot for a project they’re doing together on Stones Throw. Before that we did the Europe tour for the Keepintime movie, with screenings and shows in London, Ireland, Scotland, France, Switzerland and before that we showed the movie in Brasil and also did a screening of Brasilintime over there. So basically just keeping busy, and moving on with the projects, it took a while to be able to get Keepintime really off the ground in other countries so that’s been the focus recently.

How was the reception for Brasilintime?

Amazing, really overwhelmingly positive.

Has there been a reason why it’s taken so long for Keepintime to be officially released in Europe, because I remember getting the DVD from the Mochilla site about 2, 3 years ago?

Was it that long ago?

I’m pretty sure it was around spring 03, maybe 04 actually…

I can’t remember for sure to be honest, but I think it was more 2004. Anyway the reason is because basically this is so self produced, it’s just a labour of love that we only get to work on it when we have money. Getting money for the DVD was incredibly hard and then we had to hustle some more. We did get a bit of interest from some companies originally but the offers weren’t realistic, it never was anything concrete we could use. So we had to continue to do it all ourselves. Marketing a project like this to the rest of the world takes money and time, which we don’t have a lot of. Well we’ve got time but money’s the bitch. Japan got it pretty much off the bat, but to be honest we still don’t have any distribution in the US which is crazy… even now there still isn’t a network behind it, we’re still doing this on our own. We had meetings, went to see some companies and some said they’d love to back it up but don’t do one off projects, which is what they saw this as, or didn’t think it was serious enough to create interest. So in the end it took a minute to get out, but no matter what I’m glad it happened this way and glad it’s now out there for people to enjoy and experience.

It’s crazy that no one stepped in to help back this up though…

Yeah and the most stupid things would happen too and slow us down. Like a hard drive breaking down, getting an advert done or making a shipment without having much money, so in turn I needed to go out and hustle some photo work, but the problem in turn was that I haven’t done much work in the last 3 years, so I didn’t even have new clients or things like that to get money from. I’ve still got my clients who always come to me but didn’t have time to go looking for more work, more money, because I was so busy and involved with getting Keepintime off the ground and working on Brasilintime. But again I wouldn’t have had it any other way. Ultimately we realised later on that it’s good we didn’t get any corporation or company involved until we had this locked, done the way we wanted. Because once you let them in and your project isn’t fully realised then you leave yourself open to them telling you what to do. So I’m glad it happened like that, we did it, put it out there, and created a bubble for it to exist because ultimately it needs to exist and that’s the most important part.

Ok. Well seeing as Keepintime is now officially out in the UK, could you give a quick run down of how this project turned from a photoshoot to a concert and then DVD?

It’s pretty simple. It started as a photo shoot where we brought legendary drummers and DJs together and we didn’t think the drummers were going to want to play. But they did after a while and we all felt that something special was happening in there. So the magazine for which the shoot was done liked it and so told us they’d want to do a launch party in a club in town and bring everyone together again, and show the short film too which we’d made during the shoot. So once the drummers were up for it, the DJs didn’t even need convincing, and so it started to take on a life of its own. I heard an interview with Kool Herc on the radio recently, following the release of Jeff Chang’s new book, and he basically explained how he would never play parties for money, or if someone asked him for an occasion, like a birthday or something, he did it when he felt there was enough interest for him to put a party on, and in a way we were the same, we did this because we felt there was the interest there. As the crowds got bigger we felt we really needed to document this, and so it took more and more shape. The thing is we didn’t have a masterplan or anything like that, it happened in a very organic manner, it was very natural, it progressed, evolved. It was always about keeping all the channels open, letting people come in with opinions and ideas.

By the time the short was done and the concert had happened, would you say the communication barriers between the DJs and the drummers had broken down?

Yeah, but it’s still complicated. There are still moments of incomprehension between people. I really believe that the most important aspect of this project is the commitment to communication and keeping those channels open. And in a way these guys knew they needed to open to this, needed to work within those channels and once that reluctance or resistance disappeared, they knew they just had to talk to each other and make it work. Ultimately it still creates a situation that is great to be in and to listen to, like at the recent NY show. It’s not to say that there isn’t any more incomprehension or anything like that, but the barriers have disappeared and I don’t know if it’s spreading yet outside of what we do, but within that it’s worked.

How was the NY show then? I didn’t realise you were still doing shows with Keepintime, I thought it was a one off thing.

Yeah well that’s because ultimately I do believe you need to see this shit live to really feel it. You’re like ‘holy shit’. You know it’s like I said in the film, sometimes in order to appreciate moments of beauty you have to see them against moments of chaos. I don’t think there is any other way to do it, to get to that moment of beauty you need to go through all the bullshit, and then you reach those moments of beauty and it’s all worth it. The music always wins in the end, and the live show proves that.

“... The world of mainstream, is on a totally different fucking planet from us …”

So who did you have there, the same line up as the LA show?

With a few changes. We had DJ Nuts from Brasil, Cut Chemist, J Rocc, Madlib, Earl Palmer, Paul Humphrey, James Gadson and this percussionist from Brasil. We wanted to get Joao Parahyba but there were issues with visa and stuff so that didn’t happen.

So it went well?

Oh yeah the audience went nuts, it was great.

Ok well, this is a bit of a tough question but if there was one thing you could choose that you’ve learnt since starting this whole project, what would it be?

Wow, there’s some many things, so I guess it’ll have to be the first one that comes to mind. It’s something that Sun Ra said that for me really speaks about the way this whole thing works: ‘You have to make a mistake to do something right’. The idea of the mistake as part of the discovery process is I think the one thing that I’ve really learnt and discovered and also it’s something we don’t have enough of in our music today. Life can be full of mistakes, but it’s what you make happen from them that matters.

That’s a great quote for sure. And would you say that being in LA, with the Bay Area further up the coast which nurtured a big portion of the great DJs and tablists today, was essential to this project happening and taking form? It wouldn’t have happened anywhere else?

Totally. So much of what would allow this to happen is about being here in this town, this part of the world. I guess you could call it a common interest of sorts. Everyone lives here for a reason you know? Axelrod, Palmer, Gadson, all the DJs, Madlib etc… If we were in NY god knows what would have happened. So again I think it goes back to what Bam and the others use to say back in the days, ‘use what’s around you’. You keep the spirit of the place going as well by doing things like this. It doesn’t mean that you can’t take it out of here, bring it to somewhere like France where it might inspire some dudes to do something else, but ultimately it had to start here.

Are you still doing the 12” series as well? Are there any more to come out?

Yeah, the third is about to drop, I just got the test presses back from the plant. Again doing a vinyl series I think is just a natural progression of this whole project. We made some vinyl for Brasilintime because we thought those who really feel this project wouldn’t necessarily want a DVD, they’d want vinyl. So we catered to that idea and funnily enough it’s exactly what happened. For example with Ninja Tune, we’d sent them a DVD when it was first done and never heard from them, they didn’t show any interest, but as soon as we sent them the vinyl singles we’d started doing after the original DVD run, they called us and told us they wanted to help us bring this whole thing over to the UK and Europe. It’s funny because there’s no money to be made from vinyl, but you’ll create a load of interest, so it’s worth it. For this new one we’ve got some great music for it, I’m really excited for it to go out, we’ve got Oh No on there, GB and Double Ohhh and some other people. It’s gonna be great.

Yeah I was lucky enough to get one of those Brasilintime breaks when you first put them out through the site, I remember me and my mate were waiting like crazy for it to go on sale so we could cop some.

Dope man, yeah that’s a very limited release, I’ve still got boxes of it sitting at home.

How limited is it then?

I think we only ever sold 50, that’s about it. Basically what happened with it was that originally I just thought it’d be cool with everyone to just put this out and help get some interest going for the Brasilintime project while we were releasing Keepintime. But then basically one of the homies, I think it was J Rocc, came and said ‘don’t do it until the movie comes out because it’d be a bitch if someone made something big using this and the whole project got ignored because of it’. And he was right in a way because even though only a few copies got out we’d started hearing beats made using the record and so it was worth just holding on to it until we got Brasilintime out and we could then use it alongside it.
It’s some crazy shit too you know, because some people didn’t even realise what it was that they had. I went to Oh No’s house shortly after the record was put out and he’d borrowed the record from someone and made beats with it, but didn’t realise what it was. So I told him, ‘you know this is your brother you’ve sampled?’ and he was bugging out (ed note: the Brasilintime record in question contains samples from records found in Brasil by the BIT artists, which included Madlib, as well as samples from the Brasilian artists featured). Ultimately it’s all part of the process and it’s not affected us badly so it’s ok and it will definitely happen again once we got Brasilintime out. So people should look out.

Well while we’re on the subject, can you give us a quick run down on what Brasilintime is and how it happened, etc…?

Well it’s just been submitted to Sundance festival, so that’s good and we’re waiting to hear from a few other film festivals too. It’s a slow process though, like with everything else, because of money, time etc… It’s basically a 2 hour long, experimental documentary following the popular music in Brasil that has resulted in hip hop, both in and out of Brasil. It’s like a Buena Vista Social Club in reverse, instead of a bunch of charming US and Brasilian guys making beautiful music in Carnegie Hall at the end, it finishes with a bunch of charming US and Brasilian guys making beautiful music in a shitty club in Sao Paulo! It’s a trip, it’s very different to what’s out there. The origin of it was that Red Bull Music Academy invited us to Brasil in 2002 and it just blew our fucking minds, it was insane, we loved it so much we just committed to doing a film there and then, and it ended up taking 3 years to make, but it was all worth it.
We had to do Keepintime first in order for people to get it, otherwise it might not have worked at all. And then it’s simply a question of pushing it until we can put it out there properly. For example Keepintime is now at a point where it’s going to help us bring money in to put into Brasilintime. After that, once this is done god knows what will happen, if someone’s interested in us continuing this thing then we will, if not it doesn’t fucking matter as I’ve got plenty of ideas.

And going back to what you were saying earlier on about looking for help with money to fund these projects, has it shocked you that no one has stepped in to help make this quicker, to help get it out there? I know as a fan, I’ve been shocked that this hasn’t been spoken of more in the last few years.

It used to shock me at the beginning. I would be like why? I was really wondering why no one seemed to see what we were doing and think it worthy of more attention, but in a way I think it’s also because of my own reluctance to pimp myself out, to go out there and try to sell myself and this project, because I’m not like that. I’ve always thought that we should be able to do this with some respect you know? Without having to go down that route in a way. And the truth is that now people over here don’t give a fuck, people are so busy swimming in their own faeces that they don’t care about shit like what we do. It’s sad but fucking true, this country’s fucked. Their world, the world of mainstream, is on a totally different fucking planet from us so it probably would have never happened anyway. I thought that maybe the world of film might be different, that we’d find people in there to help us, and Sundance have, they’ve backed us from the beginning, but no one else picked us up. And in a way this whole project, and the process of putting it together has taught me that the institution of film has in a way ceased to evolve you know? It isn’t about pushing boundaries anymore, showing new things, taking chances, it’s just about repeating itself, reliving past glories and capitalising on what we know makes money. There’s no commitment to progression anymore, and it’s become a very dark time for creative things, especially in this country. We live in very dark times. I was driving my friend to work earlier on when you called, and we were listening to the radio and there was a show on about torture, and why it’s being done, and how much of it is done, why it’s wrong etc… and unfortunately this shit is the reality in this country today, not what we do. New Orleans, Baghdad, these are the reality. And in a sense it’s frustrating because you’re thinking, ‘why aren’t they listening to us?’, paying attention to what we’re doing, there isn’t just bad shit happening in this world. I was shocked when I started this but you get used to it and you know shit doesn’t change in a sense, because we’re not on their radar, we’re not on the same fucking level.

It’s a very grim time, even over here. Just watching TV or looking at the news you’ve got to wonder why they don’t focus on other things, why everything has to be so dark and depressing. Why people you know who’re talented can’t get a break.

That’s it, everyone knows some cat who’s sitting on some heat. I always wonder why Otis (Madlib) is not on the radar, why he isn’t getting picked up left, right and centre, but the truth is it’s because the system of worth today is totally fucking twisted.
I honestly don’t believe for a minute that there isn’t a link between the war today and the music we’re being fed through the mainstream, in a way. I’m interested in the closure of the system, the way things are done so that it’s all concentrated in one place, everything is in and people don’t know what it’s like not to be plugged in anymore. People can’t imagine what it’s like not to be plugged in to your TV, radio etc… I never had a TV for most of my life, until I started doing this, because I needed a TV to do the film editing. So I bought into the system, plugged in and now I’m watching their shit, the shows, what people are being fed. And it’s all fucking absurd to me, because I can’t believe that with the technology we have today, the things we can do, I can’t believe we can’t abolish things like poverty, famine, etc… It’s ludicrous, but at the same time I know that this energy, this technology is being pointed away, to other things, like war and that’s the reality of it. It’s fucking sad but you can’t stop living, you can’t let this stop you or scare you from doing what you want to do. But you should know it.
Anyway we can continue on this point if you want dude, but it’s gonna be a long interview if we do, because I’ve got a lot to say! (laughs)

That’s all good, I’d love to carry on that subject too but we best get back to the stuff at hand. You’re right though, I fully agree with what you say.
Anyways, I also wanted to ask you how the photo work is going? You mentioned it’s taken a back seat since you started these projects?

It’s going all right, I’ve never stopped doing it, but I’m doing less of it. I haven’t got the same energy as before since doing these other things. I’ve grown in different ways too, from doing this, as you normally do and so I’m looking forward to getting back to it because it’s been a while and once Brasilintime is knocked out, I can concentrate on it again. I’ve not been as committed but I’ve not stopped, I recently did the Damien Marley album cover, Welcome to Jamrock, so that was nice and it was the biggest one that I’ve done in a while.

Oh shit you did that cover?!

Yup in a different stylee!

“... Sometimes in order to appreciate moments of beauty you have to see them against moments of chaos…”

Would you say that with your love of music, collecting, when you were more of a photographer, before doing all this, that one medium (photography) helped you express your love for another (music)?

Totally. I’ve always believed since I started doing this that music addresses part of the body which photography can’t. The way it makes you want to move, a photo can’t do that, but a photo in return will affect you in a totally different way to music. It’s all about affecting you in new ways. By including what music does to the body into my photo work I’ve created what I want to do and say and they’ve become totally intertwined in my life.

And so has the movie work you’ve been doing changed that again? Do you see the mediums in a new way again?

You grow all the time, and the thing is with the movie medium you control time as well. It’s like a DJ and a musician, with the DJ you’re one step removed from the music because you’re not making it as such, but in turn this means that you can see it in a different way and make it do different things to what a musician could. I believe it’s the same with movie and photos. A print is abstract, it can be anything in a way, it’s like a floating piece of time but once it starts moving in time within a movie, it becomes different and takes on different meanings.

Wicked. Well we’re nearly done, but I did want to ask you something else. Having been in LA and around the DJ scene for so long, having seen it evolve though the years and with the KIT project, I was wondering what you think about the whole DJ/turntablist scene today? The new turntable movements that are happening round your parts and elsewhere in the world.

I’m really happy that the competition aspect of it has mellowed out. It’s like what happened with freestyle battles, I’ve always thought it’s good but it shines light only on one, or a few, characteristics of what makes the artform and in a sense diminishes others. On the other hand, the good thing is that this shit has never been so fucking popular. It really amazes me, like recently we took DJ Nuts to a Guitar Center to go and look for some stuff, and it was like middle of the week in the afternoon and I was just amazed at the people in there, the variety of people getting down on tables today is just mad. It’s really blown off and become massive. Which I think is good, the expansion of digging, of the anthropological aspect of it, people looking for things, keeping the traditions and beliefs alive, it’s all the same thing for me. I don’t see differences between Q Bert rocking some shit on the turntables in front of an audience or reading an article in Wax Poetics, it’s all part of the same thing, different sides of the same thing, which make it a whole.

Have you had the chance to hear some of the new shit being made on tables live and in the studio, like the stuff D-Styles and Ricci Rucker do with their band Gunkhole, shit like that?

Oh yeah, I know Ricci Rucker, he’s incredible and a friend. I have a lot of time for anybody grappling with that shit and finding new ways to do stuff on turntables, no matter what. I really love all that shit. Birdy Nam Nam is dope too…

Shit! You know about them?

Yeah I heard their album and I loved it before I even knew it was all done on turntables, and when I found out it made even better.

That’s proper crazy, I saw them recently, I know one of them and work with all this stuff on the regular with the show and site. It’s good to hear their music is getting heard out there.

Totally it’s crazy so many things are happening around the world, you can’t let people talk you down. Like when we were in Japan for the film, we did a show with this crazy Japanese crew opening for us and they were amazing.

“... So many things are happening around the world, you can’t let people talk you down…”

What was their name?

I can’t remember…
We then spend five minutes throwing names about to see if we get lucky… a few days later I get a mail from B+ who remembered their name, Hifana.

Anyway basically if you’ve seen the show Shadow, Numark and Cut Chemist do on his DVD…

The MPC one?

Yeah basically they were doing the same shit but with turntables as well, doing a fully orchestrated show where the music was all created on the spot and it was incredible. But yeah to get back to it, I’m really happy about how things are going, I think it’s still a very transitional moment for this artform, this music, it’s changing and evolving and so you’ve got to make the most of it and push it in any direction you can.

Wicked. Well we’re pretty much done, but before you go one more question. Would you continue doing things like this in the future?

Totally. Like Herc said if there’s enough interest I’ll do it. So far there’s been plenty of interest and support so I’m happy. I want to get back to photography as well, but if some new shit comes up for a similar project I’ll be totally ready to go again.
Many thanks to Laura at Ninja Tune for the help in setting it up and Brian for his time. Keepintime is out now on Ninja Tune and the last 12” remix is also out now....
- Kper

Related Links:

Mochilla - B+ and KIT home

Ninja Tune