ukhh.com | features | interviews | Creative Control Part 2

Part 2
interview 0153 added 19.08.03 words Sumo Kaplunk

[Ben-One] thinka bout that, getting no credit and being treated like wallpaper by a bunch of lip-synching emcees?

[Ben-One] If you look back in the day, it was all about the deejay - not that that should be the extreme case now either - but…

[Ben-One] Well the group was called "DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince….Eric B & Rakim…Kool G Rap & DJ Polo!"

[Para] It's not such a bad thing I guess because look, it made them go off and do their own thing and look what they've created? They've created the art of turntablism which has just rocketed and progressed quicker really than any other aspects of hip hop.

[Cello] That's what I like about Creative Control as well. We let the deejay have centre stage. It's not always a "rap" track. I'm kinda always just one of the artists that's "featured." It's more about trying to use all the elements -

[Ben-One] The strength comes in the combination of the elements.

[Cello] Let the deejay do a track, let him compose…Let the deejay be the front man.

[Ben-One] I think where it all fucked up was when the marketing men came in - that's on all levels; not just the overground level but the underground level too. It's when you started getting just graf videos, just deejay videos, just breaking videos and just emcees on stage rapping over DATs. Everything became it's own miniature sub-culture within a sub-culture.

[Cello] You could go up to an emcee and ask "what do you think of Mr Wiz?" -

[Ben-One] Or you could ask "what do you think of Mr Wiggles?" and they'd be like -

[Cello] "Who's that?"

[Ben-One] 'cus everybody knows yeah there's four predominant elements to hip hop but there is a lot more to hip hop than just that.

[Cello] It's like Reggae and lots of other things that have influenced the world - it's influenced marketing, design - billboards, music - everything!

[Ben-One] It's like I've heard some people in hip hop turn round and say they don't like reggae but without reggae you would never have had two turntables and a microphone, you wouldn't have had a Kool Herc to set it all off

[Cello] What was it that Buck65 was saying about line-dancing? That was pretty funny!

[Para] Oh yeah! He was saying that an origin of emceeing could have come from like line-dancing and the people like choreographing and saying "Grab your partners…Dosy-doe!" because they are scatting/emceeing over some weird like country & Western and that too has been going since like before the '70s - If you trace it back you could have some form of emceeing that's like..

[Ben-One] Well Freestyle Fellowship trace it back to like Griots

[Cello] And we did that show with Banksy, that tribalism thing connecting hip hop with tribes and how like turntables and drums are used to communicate

[Ben-One] And how like mankind always tries to build up into the sky

[Cello] And what's that quote? "The mud-huts become tower-blocks?"

[Ben-One] Yeah from mud huts to tower blocks man…

[Para] You can take the music aspect away from hip hop and you've still got hip hop. It doesn't just need to be music. I know this is debatable but at the end of the day, hip hop began as a culture which incorporates things like - even the words we use to describe things can be considered part of the culture. I'm not into fashion or anything but there definitely is hip hop fashion - it always goes beyond whatever definition people give it - it's unity as well!

[Chris] The reason skateboarding became so big is because you can sell skateboards. And the reason the music aspect of hip hop has become so big is because -

[Para] Because you can make money off of it

[Chris] You can't sell a breakdance
And you can't really sell graffiti can you?

[Ben-One] Not yet really but as soon as they figure out a way how, they will.

[Para] But you can

[Cello] Well they've done it with like designs -

[Para] T-shirt designs, Sprite cans etc

[Cello] Even Goldie's book - but it's good because those people do deserve whatever they can get

[Chris] But there's spreading the artform and there's commercialism.

[Ben-One] Basically, in the mid '90s was when all the students got into it. before Jurassic 5 and people like that blew up it wasn't really cool to be into hip hop

[Para] It was dark and dingy and there weren't a lot of white people in the jams…

[Ben-One] At that point, it was still just full of people off the estates and stuff like that - it was all good and there never was any bad vibes or anything

[Cello] But it really was another time - way more intense

[Ben-One] yeah it was more intense but never any bad vibes.

[Cello] Yeah it had that edginess but without any of the nastiness.

[Ben-One] I remember we used to go to shows out of town and people used to be like "Where you from then?" and we'd say "Swindon" and they'd say "Well why do you come here then?" and we'd say "just for the music man!"

[Para] Afterward we'd be kipping rough in the station -

[Ben-One] That's right - or we'd be sleeping rough outside the club after kicking out.

[Chris] We had some wicked times though it's gotta be said!

[Cello] We went to see The Brotherhood years ago and MC Cell was there as well…And there was a posse of about twenty five of us who'd all got on this one train across to Bath just to bum-rush this night-club - we had cider bottles in our jacket and we just completely bum-rushed the place!

[Ben-One] That's it though; sting an off-licence and then go raving… But they wouldn't even let us into clubs down here, let alone put on a hip hop night.

[Cello] It's incredible 'cus now we're playing clubs that wouldn't even let us in ten years ago.

[Para] That's what I'm saying.. In a way, with this "commercialism" thing - it's not all gone "commercial" - I see two paths. You've always got the people that follow and the people who know and at the end of the day, for people like me especially being a deejay - seeing deejays in a Kylie Minogue video, as much as it pisses me off, it gets me extra week because it's now all of a sudden trendy, I can get more work - I teach deejaying for a living y'know? I wouldn't have been able to teach deejaying for a living if it hadn't blown up like the way it has. Every shop you go into now you'll see a deck on a t-shirt - and on every video there's always a deejay trying to look busy doing something or other in the background, spinning on his head or trying to do something.. He's usually got the decks the wrong way around or unplugged or something but y'know… Still it all helps!

[Ben-One] Or the mixer's not even plugged in -
Aaah! Like Toadie on Uni FM!

[Para] Or you get those cheesy Fanta adverts where there's a cheesy little "ah yeah!" in the background - but it all helps because the people who are already into it are going to get more work out of it.

[Cello] And let's face it, we all found it - well at least I know I found hip hop through blatant commercialism. I was there when Malcom McClaren's Buffalo girls came out, I saw it on Top of the pops and I was like "What the hell is this!?" And then I saw Break-machine…Breakdance…Beatstreet, - and that's how I got into it. So for it to be commercial is a good thing in one sense. People will see the commercial stuff that the media gives them and then discover the good stuff for themselves.

[Ben-One] Another thing is, you don't necessarily have to do a pop record to be popular. You can still make critically acclaimed music that also gets popular acclaim on a big scale.

[Cello] You'll still get the odd alternative song that gets into the charts on the strength of the song itself.

[Ben-One] It's like the Neptunes get a lot of stick but I think they're fucking brilliant producers! They just seem to only work with shit vocalists. It's like Timbaland, the guy's a genius so why doesn't he get decent vocalists in and create something more together -

[Cello] But it's about formula. There is that formula that works - I mean, even though we're saying that a good song could get popular and in the charts, there's still that certain formula that does work. It goes something like: CHORUS-CHORUS-CHORUS-catchy rap-CHORUS-CHORUS-CHORUS

[Ben-One] Drill something into peoples' heads for three minutes and of course they're going to remember it.

[Para] OK, we've gone off on a tangent a bit but -

[Cello] This happens every time we get interviewed; we always fucking go off on one -

[Para] But coming back to my work teaching yeah? You see these kids - and I'm not stereotyping - but they're all wearing the same hats, the caps, the t-shirt, they listen to "Rap music" and if you ask them what they're into they'll say "HIP HOP!" But ask them "What are the four elements?" and they'll say "What are they?" So yeah it is a scary thing. But those whose hearts are in tune with it, they'll find out. It's like I didn't know the four elements when I first started listening to NWA and Public Enemy. It all comes in time - especially here in Swindon, there's a big thing about teaching history in this scene in this town which I'm forever thankful for

[Ben-One] Luckily we all teach. I teach music technology at local youth centres

[Cello] and I teach Rap & /Scratch workshops with Para for kids - that's over at Parks -

[Ben-One] We all work over at Parks South youth and community centre. If anybody wants to come down, it's on every Wednesday.

[Para] And on Thursdays!

[Cello] So if any of you loocal kids wana come doon and learn ow too Spray-dance and body-rap?? And doon't forget Scratch-sprayin neither!
How do you feel about how, when you go to a gig or are performing at one, more than half the people there are also would-be artists? How do you feel about most of your audience being would-bes and wannabes?

[Ben-One] Thing is, it's now the digital age so now every man and their dog can have a go - And to be honest, and I don't want to sound funny about it, but hip hop's becoming a rich-man's sport. I've seen kids that have come from out of nowhere, they can afford to buy the hot mixer with the best curvatures and they learn how to get good within a couple of weeks. But these kids soon fall out of it - there's always this flood of people coming into it overnight and saying "I'm a deejay now! I'm a rapper!" Most of them don't last six months.

[Cello] I mean, when I first started writing, for a start you wouldn't buy your paint; you'd have to go out wracking! There was no pink! You'd have to save your dinner money and it was about a week's worth of dinner money just to buy a single can of Buntblack Rose-Pink and that'd be like your god! -

[Ben-One] and it'd only last you a week -

[Cello] Oh no! You wouldn't touch it! You'd maybe use like a little bit to finish off a piece - but now you've got all these kids -

[Para] But to be honest, I don't think a lot has changed. Look at De La Soul, they summed it up in like 88 with that line "everybody wants to be a deejay, everybody wants to be an emcee!" At every show you've got half the crowd that's there because of what's going on and the other half of the audience are there because they're up and coming artists taking notes.

[Ben-One] To be honest, when you're actually on stage and you look out onto the audience you get a whole new perspective. You see most the people doing whatever, like talking to each other or whatever, half the people will be dancing - and half the people dancing will only be dancing with each-other, they're just hanging out and they don't give a fuck what you're playing to be honest.

[Para] but then you always get those people studying your every movements as well. You know they're the ones working on their own music definitely.

[Ben-One] and another thing that really annoys me is people who come and hang over the deejay booth when you're playing. That is not needed.

[Cello] I'm cold when I'm up there I don't know about you guys! Even with like real tasty girls and they're like "oooh Cello!" I'm like "GET AWAY FROM MY TURNTABLES!" I don't care who they are!

[Ben-One] Hip hop is quite healthy now. There's always ups and downs and we'll always have something to moan about but we'll also always have something to be proud about.

[Cello] there's always something to celebrate!

[Para] It's always changing, always progressing and sometimes that can get scary.

[Ben-One] Yeah hip hop overall is progressive but I've got to say, England's scene seems really averse to change.

[Cello] You get stigmatised for wanting to -

[Ben-One] Move with the times - but that's just Britishness as a whole; that's not just British hip hop, it's British life. Britishness is all about being grey and drab and miserable… It's funny because you consider how omnipotent England looks in the eyes of the rest of the world when in reality we're fuck all.

[Para] It's about time England made a big step in hip hop because if you think about it, you've got New York yeh? They created it and it was always New York until we got up into middle-school and then it started going a bit thuggish and it drifted across to the Westcoast who then pushed the boundaries in all elements with like all forms, breaking deejaying - even their Graf styles over there was well original. But if you notice now, hip hop's floating northwards and now look at Canada! Everything good is coming out from Canada! You've got Buck65, everybody on the Peanuts & Corn label, Josh Martinez - there's so many decent emcees and artists coming out and pushing the boundaries so isn't it about time the attention moved over here to England?

[Ben-One] While we're talking about Canada, I just want to quickly biggup Lexis Bay from State of the Union - hopefully we're going to be working with them on something in the near future -

[Cello] Word!? I didn't know that! Good thing I turned up for this interview! Yehyehyeh, I need to get in touch with you [Ben-One] about that - we really need to hook up to do some work soon hehe…

[Para] But thing is, it's not out of a lack of talent is it? Because if you look at the DMCs, there's always British deejays representing there - it's always US UK and Canada that are the big contenders.

[Ben-One] And UK is, on the whole, a lot more clued up about hip hop than some places in America. If you go some place like Miami then we know more about hip hop over here than they do over there -

[Para] The history especially.
Coming back to "Commercialism" yeah? Recently Boom Bip sold a song to Lloyds TSB for that advert didn't he? Have you ever thought about selling and licensing your stuff for adverts and whatever and would you attach any conditions to the use of your music?

[Cello] I would, I'd sell definitely!

[Ben-One] Put it this way…. AT the end of the day mate, I'm going home to a basement with no amenities and I've got a fucking eviction notice for the end of this month. So if someone wants to use my shit on the new Rover advert, they're more than welcome to it!

[Cello] So Ben's doing a Vanilla Ice at the moment!

[Ben-One] To be honest, I've got no guaranteed money coming in at the moment. Everything I've got has come straight out my pocket from what I've got for myself. My parents aint got no money to give me. If I don't make something for myself, my kids aint going to have anything.

[Cello] I think it's good in a certain sense. If it's beneficial to do something that's positive but for people like Gap!? I would definitely not do anything for them.

[Ben-One] I would not give up community teaching for doing adverts.

[Para] It's about balance -

[Ben-One] I want to work and I want to make money out of hip hop but I'm not going to put my nuts on the table for it.

[Para] I'm actually doing a project at the moment that's designed for advertisement. Basically I just finished it and with my girlfriend and it's being sent out to all the big advertising companies. I know it is commercialism in a sense and it isn't strictly hip hop (but that comes back to what we were saying earlier, what is?) but the way I see stuff like this is, you get a lot of money but no fame which is perfect for me. You say Boom Bip sold his tune to…who was it? Lloyds? Well you know that and now I know that but most people who watch that advert aint gonna know who's done that. Boom Bip can stay anonymous and progress how he wants. He is an independent artist and he is largely anonymous - so that's not really the kind of commercialism that's going to fuck up hip hop. That's more about enhancing the music with visuals and attaching ideas you can see. At the end of the day, he made that tune and it's still good no matter what.

[Ben-One] To be honest, I'd rather Boom Bip got the job than Nelly. Thing is, does it compromise Boom Bip's integrity? Did he write it for that ad?
No

[Ben-One] or did they come to him and say, "we want that!"

[Para] Right.

[Ben-One] If they come to you then that's different - that's like a complement.

[Cello] At the moment I'm also involved in a drum & bass band and some doors have opened with them and that situation and I embrace all opportunities! Even if that stuff did cross over and become commercial, I do think the group retains enough integrity to make people bounce and dance. It's not like there ever was some deep meaning underneath it all. It's just something that could afford me the opportunity to make my living and also do what I love. It's like what Ben says, as long as it's not going to stop us in our community, doing things with people, still teaching what we believe.

[Para] It all boils down to that individual. If Boom Bip makes a lot of money off that advert, - well look at the artists he works with yeh? He works with Dose-One, Buck65, Sixtoo - basically he works with people who've got a lot to say and a lot of good positive stuff to say - or at least stuff that makes you think in a positive way. Now if he gets that money and keeps working with artists like that then it's all good. But if he gets a lot of money and thinks "now who can I afford now" and gets on the phone and gets like P Diddy or someone, well that's up to him but that's just about greed. Like Ben says, if they've approached him, he's not compromising anything, what so ever. They're using it because they like it; fair play. Give him the money and let him carry on working on more decent hip hop.

[Ben-One] It's like you don't have to make trash music to be popular. We all need to eat so I do on the whole think it's a good thing. At the end of the day though, if he's doing Esso ads or ICI ads then he gets no love.

- Part 3