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  Saul Williams Interview
interview 0311 added 08.06.05 words: Nikesh Shukla
technical:
QED
Saul Williams, the poet, actor, producer, artist, writer and according
to musician,
Charlie Dark, “the best MC you’ve never heard of.” New York-Williams is
best known for his work on the film, “Slam”, introducing a generation to
rap-poetry, and on the Lyricists Lounge compilation. There’s nothing he
turns his hands to that he can’t excel at. Wire-thin with unkempt hair
and intensity bubbling under the surface, he’s released books of poetry,
an album, a war-condemning special record and won countless poetry
competitions. This is a man of the highest calibre.
Having just released his second, eponymous album, he flew into London
for an amazing and impassioned gig at the Scala, resulting in some
intelligent grippo bouncing and even an acapella poetry piece delivered
with no amplification except his voice, that hushed an entire venue. I
had to talk to this man. He’s influenced me in a lot of ways, and he
really is at the top of his game. A master of words and imagery, pathos
and polemic… he’s an intense, passionate, articulate and riotous
musician. What follows is only an extract of our hour-long chat. It’s
lengthy, but it’s full of sheer pearls of wisdom. “The best MC you’ve
never heard”? You need to go seek.
Introduce yourself
and tell us the last book you read:
 I’m Saul Williams. The last book I read was “Women” by Charles Bukowski.
Tell us about the
new album...
The majority of the album was recorded at home. I recorded the music
first, then wrote to the music. My focus was on writing in as strict
accordance as I could to traditional song format. Verse, chorus, verse,
chorus, bridge blah blah blah. That was my goal. My last album,
“Amethyst Rock Star”, I had written the poetry first and then I wrote
music to go with the poetry. This time, I wanted to focus on it as being
more song-driven. One of the reasons was, as a writer of poetry, I do a
lot of writing in free form and verse. I thought it would be fun to
actually challenge myself with sticking to a format. So, I thought I’d
probably experience more success in reaching the people I wanna reach if
I wrote in song-format.
How long did the
album take to make?
The first song I recorded for the album was “Grippo.” I recorded it in
2001 or 2002, I’m not sure. It started then. When I think of that song,
I don’t think about the lyrics, I think about the music. That is the
song that established the pace of the album. I was going for a
particular sound. And I had been searching for some time as to how to
establish and develop that sound. I wanted it to be fast, uptempo and
aggressive. Sure enough, I think, when came up with that sound, I knew
that this was the direction I was going in. That was in 2001 or 2002.
Soon after I finished recording it, I had it on CD and I was in Canada
and I played it for K-Os, saying “This is the new sound. This is where
I’m going.” About a year later, he called up and said “Oh my god…” See,
I was calling the form of music I was creating ‘grippo’ not just the
song. And he said, “Oh my god, I heard a grippo song on the radio!”
You’re not gonna believe it but…
It was like “Hey Ya”?
Exactly, “Hey Ya”.
How did you hook up
the collaborations on the album? There’s quite an eclectic mix of
collaborators you have…
People like Serj and Zach were the simplest ones to connect because
they’re friends and they were around. The one with Serj, he initiated.
He called me one day and said he was thinking about me and wrote a song
with me in mind. He had composed it on piano and had a friend of his
singing operatic notes in the background. So he sent to me and I thought
it sounded like the perfect introduction to the album. As for Zach, I
see him a lot and we hang out together. We’d done a few things together,
performance-wise. We’d been talking about recording together for years.
And this was the perfect opportunity, the beat for “Act 3: Scene 2”. The
beat was produced by Thavius Beck and when I heard that beat, I knew a
couple of things. I didn’t want the entire album to be about what was
happening, like 9/11. Even though I was active in the anti-war thing and
I put out the “Not In My Name” thing, I didn’t want the album to be one
big anti-war statement. But I knew that that song was going to be the
one song where I focused really on that and I knew I wanted Zach on the
track…
Did you write the
lyrics together?
The lyrics were an idea I came up with. I told him the title was
“Shakespeare.” I may have recorded my vocals before giving it to him.
The whole thing was I wanted to find a way to appeal to soldiers, to get
them to listen without getting angry. To make them think instead of
making them angry. I had to find a ‘clever’ approach to doing this
anti-war concept, without it being overtly obvious. I thought about the
speech from Julius Caesar, by Marc Anthony in Act 3, scene 2 of Julius
Caesar… “Friends, Romans, Countrymen… lend me your ears…” The clever
thing about that speech is that Marc Anthony has to deliver this speech
to the Roman people. His friend Caesar has been killed by Brutus and
Brutus and his friends have taken over the government.
"...it was fun to write the material on the Not in Our Name EP. I wrote that
stuff because I needed to read it. I said it because I needed to hear it..."
They allow Marc Anthony to speak to the people at Caesar’s funeral, as
long as he promises not to say anything against the current regime. All
Marc Anthony wants to do is speak against the current regime. So he has
to find a clever way of getting the people to overthrow the government
without overtly saying it so the current government don’t kill him
before they are overthrown. And so, that’s the whole thing… “Brutus says
that Caesar was killed by his own ambition… and Brutus is an honourable
man.” I was playing with the idea of the people as the slain Caesar. The
power has been taken from the people by the current regime. I was trying
to find a way to empower the people to overthrow the current regime
whilst still playing with the fact that the current regime could silence
us. The fact of the matter is that they really can’t.
There’s a lot of
themes on the album about the deviation of hip-hop from its main source
and bile at the current regime. What angered you most when writing the
lyrics and music?
 They’re one and the same, the current regime and the prevailing attitude
in hip-hop. You look at 50 Cent’s last album. His lyrics go. “I’ll do
what I wanna do, the DA can play this motherfucking tape in court, I’ll
kill you…” which is actually brilliant. He’s baiting the DA and he’s
threatening to kill them. That’s amazing. But then, Bush says: “I’ll do
what I wanna do, don’t care if I get caught, the UN’s gonna take my
motherfucking ass to court, I’ll kill you.” It’s the same shit. The
gangsta mentality is the mentality of the current regime. That’s why I
juxtaposed the two on the album. The two are one and the same. That’s
what I said on the last album: “How much will cost to buy you out?”
(Penny for a Thought). You’re buying into a reality that initially
bought you. I understand what makes a gangsta a gangsta. When it’s real,
I enjoy it. That’s why I like The Game. But I do think that some of the
ideas are not completely thought through. Like, when we begin the
process of making money and capital, god and saviour, then it becomes
this dead-end street. It doesn’t lead to what we expect it to. During
times of slavery, a slave could buy their freedom. And once they did,
many of them still got lynched. Many of them still got stolen by
overseers and slave-traders and sold back into slavery, even though they
had their papers. It was as easy as ripping their papers up and saying
“Fuck you, nigger, you’re still a slave.” Institutionally, they were
still misrepresented. Even though they bought their way out of slavery,
they still had to go into hiding in case the wrong white person saw
them. The illusion of freedom was over. The only thing you can have that
people can’t take away from you is an education… that’s the only thing.
That’s why I rail against some of that gangsta shit, because if cats are
holding on to something material and thinking “I’m at the top now
because I have, I have, I have…” then you’re just a step away from being
a have-not.
"...What I’m writing right now is the hardest of hardcore, the streetest of
street, the gutterest of gutter..."
A lot of what you get in school is mis-education. Some of the most
intelligent cats I know will have learned on the streets. Nas is not a
college-educated individual. Ludacris went to college, Nas did not.
Killer Mike went to college, Andre 3000 didn’t. P Diddy went to college,
Black Rob didn’t. It doesn’t matter about the academic aspect of
education. The real knowledge comes in applying what you’ve learned to
what is. What is… is more than getting over beating the system. That’s
one kind of knowledge and it’ll get you to a certain point and you’ll be
a successful businessman. But part of being a successfully balanced
person is knowing that there’s power in vulnerability. That’s another
parallel I saw in the gangsta-ism of commercial hip-hop and the gangsta-ism
of George Bush. This whole idea that if you show no sign of
vulnerability, that will make you invincible. The hardest MC’s will say,
“I’m heartless son, you don’t wanna fuck with me” which isn’t keeping it
real. I think the strongest position is to say “Yo, you could really
hurt me, you might make me cry… it’s not gonna stop me but it might hurt
me.” It’s a matter of thinking, I’m not going to think you’re hard
because of your screwface. A lot of my critique in hip-hop is not done
as a poet on the outside. I play around with that title. But anyone who
listens to me will know my background is as an MC. It’s all about that
sense of braggadocio. The strongest position I take on that is to say,
“Your whole game is wack. You’re not real. Son, I’m going by my given
name. This is my birthname.” You’re saying saying keep it real and
you’re going around with a nickname and a fucked up screwface? You
expect me to believe that’s real? That’s not real. You’re telling me
you’re heartless and expect me to think that’s real? That’s not real.
You have a son, a daughter. You’re not being real right now. I wanna
play with the idea of calling people on their shit. But it’s all done
tongue in cheek.
Pertaining to all
of that (this interview was conducted 2 days before the election. The
answer still seems pertinent), who should we be voting for on Thursday?
I didn’t even tell people in the States who they should vote for. I
think it’s always the best bet to vote for change. But you have to judge
it accordingly. Our election in the States… obviously a great deal of us
weren’t on the side of Bush. We didn’t want him to win but the main
thing we could admit after Bush was re-elected, was that none of us
really liked Kerry. The fact of the matter is that in strategic senses,
we are better off with Bush in office than with Kerry. Just because with
all the youth mobilising – anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-globalisation,
anti-republican agenda – all the mobilisation that was occurring while
Bush was in office could possibly stop if Kerry came to office and we’d
have to assume the position of being apathetic again.
"...You’re buying into a reality that initially bought you..."
It kinda keeps us on our toes. No, we don’t want the people in Iraq and
Afghanistan to suffer more than they already have but I think it’s
better to know the face of the enemy and keep working against it than to
have it disappear into the background. The face of this arrogant
American man who thinks he can police other nations before he polices
himself. Who assumes that we as Americans, who represents 5% of the
world’s population, can claim other countries’ natural resources as our
own. That is the face of the enemy. Many of us, without realising it,
have bought into the mentality behind this face so with him there as
some sort of archetype, we’re allowed to disassociate ourselves from
that which we’ve bought into. And sometimes, we need to continue to see
it as we continue our process of disassociation, just so we know what
we’re not becoming.
What’s next for
you?
 A book and an album, together. As a separate package though. If it was
one package, it’d be too artsy. I’d rather have people have the decision
to choose. What I’m writing right now is the hardest of hardcore, the
streetest of street, the gutterest of gutter… it’s poetry but it’s
definitely in rhyme form. It’s the realest b-boy shit ever. My new stuff
will be more street than anything else… It’s like the shit I’m feeling
right now but with my own twist on it….
Do you have any
plans to do more acting?
Plans… yes. In actuality, no.
Do you still do any
spoken word gigs?
I do a great deal actually. A number of the gigs I do in the States are
at universities, doing poetry readings or giving lectures. I do a great
deal of that. I know I should do more of that here but I don’t book my
own gigs. Someone needs to organise it. I did it years ago with Apples &
Snakes.
"...I wanted to focus on it as being more song-driven..."
You said in another
interview, that you were aiming for the mainstream with this album “in
order to subvert it”. Is that why there’s a more mainstream sound on
there?
You mean, with “Grippo”? The 50 Cent impersonation (on “PG)…?
Yeah?
It’s easy to intellectualise about it but really, I was at home in my
little studio/laundry room and I did it for a joke. I did it because I
did. I play around like that all the time. As an MC, I’ve always played
around with other people’s flows and styles. I don’t always record them…
No chance of a
Weird Al Yankvick-style covers and pastiches album then?
Haha, I don’t know about that.
Who were you
listening to when you were recording the album?
 Mostly I’ve been listening to a lot of hip-hop… chopped and screwed
stuff, like Mike Jones, T.I., a lot of the Atlanta and Texan stuff. I
really like the chopped and screwed stuff, it’s like hip-hop dub. Really
slowed down, and really interesting. Aside from that, I’ve been
listening to the new Nine Inch Nails album, the Dresden Dolls, the new
Sleater-Kinney album… what else? A lot of reggae and dub and dancehall…
The new Mars Volta album.
"...I think it’s better to know the face of the enemy and keep working
against it than to have it disappear into the background..."
On the album track,
“Black Stacey”, despite the bouncy uptempo rhythm, it’s quite a dark and
depressing tale of growing up. Where…
Stacey is my middle name. That’s a song I’ve been wanting to write for a
long time. It’s about what it’s like to grow up with really dark skin,
around other people with really dark skin, who say to you that you’re
too cute to be so cute. My complexion was a major issue when I was
growing up. What I like most about the song is the take on it I have.
I’m taking a humorous, sarcastic approach. That’s why I start with the
image: “I used to hump my pillow at night…” I’m saying, let’s have fun
and talk about this, even though: “I always told you not to brag about
how your great-grandmother was raped by her slave master.” I’m trying to
find a humorous way to discuss what I wanna discuss and thus not be
preachy.
How powerful is
cinema for you, to watch and be a part of?
I’m affected by art, period. Art, music, film… films are the only thing
we do where we turn off all the lights, and let the light come from one
source and the sound from all around and we tune out everyone around us
and just take it in. You can ingest a lot through that medium. Because
it’s so cut off from the outside world, you can cut it off from your
reality. I remember watching “Menace II Society” and being really
affected by that. I remember we went to a drive-thru afterwards so we
could act out one of the scenes. I think it’s an important medium.
“Slam” gave me the opportunity to play around with that medium, and
write and act for it. Music may be more powerful. It’s always there in
the background. Even in film, a film without music is not as powerful.
The music tells you something’s about to happen. It brings about some
sort of intuitive understanding, even before your mind registers it.
Final shameless
plugs/shout-outs/rants before you go.
No. Buy my album.
“Saul Williams” is out to buy now on Wichita Recordings. Thanks to
Mike for the extra help and Ben at Wichita.
-
Nikesh Shukla
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